The Souls Origin

By Mahesh Raja das
Two statements from Bhaktivedanta Vedabase to back-up that the letter “Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic” WAS INFACT FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA.
“2.3.1 “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila”
In 1972, a devotee in Australia began saying that the living entities in this material world were originally situated in the brahmajyoti. According to Madhudvisa Prabhu and Caru Prabhu, who were both in Australia at the time, this caused some fairly widespread disturbance. Srila Prabhupada therefore dictated a response, a typed copy of which was retained by Madhudvisa Prabhu. This is the famous crow and tal fruit message. Madhudvisa has said that it was distributed to the Australian temple presidents. In this statement, given in direct response to inquiries from his students on the question of the origin of the jiva, Srila Prabhupada gives many definitive answers to the questions facing us. He intended these not just as answers to a particular devotee but as his official answer to a philosophical controversy that had arisen in the Society”
“80) THAT the GBC suggests that devotees interested in apparent logical contradictions surrounding the”fall of the jiva” read the following paper on the topic, which Srila Prabhupada had sent to devotees in Australia in 1972 to resolve controversies that arose among them about this topic. The paper came as an attachment to a letter from Srila Prabhupada to Madhudvisa dasa dated June 6, 1972.”
 Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic
   We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.
   Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.
   We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.
   So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.
   So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.
   BECAUSE HE FALLS DOWN FROM BRAHMASAYUJYA, HE THINKS THAT MAY BE HIS ORIGIN, BUT HE DOES NOT REMEMBER THAT BEFORE THAT EVEN HE WAS WITH KRSNA. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.
   On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.
   Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila–both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya’s clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna’s lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.
   Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna’s lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don’t waste your time with this “Kaka taliya nyaya,” crows and tal-fruit logic.
760708ed.wdc              Conversations
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, THEREFORE WE MAY FALL DOWN FROM VAIKUNTHA AT ANY MOMENT. ICCHA-DVESA SAMUTTHENA SARGE YANTI PARANTAPA. FIND OUT THIS VERSE.
Pusta Krsna:

                      iccha-dvesa samutthena
                      dvandva-mohena bharata
                      sarva-bhutani sammoham
                      sarge yanti parantapa

   “O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate.”
Prabhupada: Purport.
Pusta Krsna: “The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krsna appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc.,
thinking ‘This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.’ These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”
Prabhupada: So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?” I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking.
Vipina: Why doesn’t Krsna protect us from that desire?
Prabhupada: He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire, surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal, you do not do this.
Vipina: Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?
Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.
Vipina: And no love.
Prabhupada: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said “If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? (laughter) “You love me, otherwise I will kill you.” (laughter) Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, “You love me, otherwise I shall kill you.” That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The… Why one is called lover, another is called rape?

69-07-24.     Letter: Rupanuga
   Regarding your question, “what is the difference between the spirit souls comprising the Brahmajyoti and the spirit souls here in Maya?”, in the Brahmajyoti the spirit souls on account of their impersonal views are devoid of a body, exactly like here in Maya there are ghosts who are devoid of any gross bodies. The ghost being devoid of a body, he suffers terribly because he is unable to satisfy his senses. The spirit souls in the Brahmajyoti, although they have no desire for sense gratification, still they feel inconvenience like the ghost, and they fall down again in the Maya’s atmosphere and develop a material body. In the Bhagavat therefore it is said that persons who are impersonalists and do not develop the dormant
devotional attitude, their intelligence is not pure, because for want of a
spiritual body, they come down again to the material world. In the
Bhagavad-gita it is clearly said by the lord that the only way of not coming
back to the material world is to be promoted to the spiritual planets. for
the impersonalists there is no such assurance of not falling down in the
whole vedic literature. The conclusion is that without developing the
spiritual body and without being situated on one of the spiritual planets,
the so-called liberation is also illusion, or it is not complete. A SPIRIT

70-02-27.     Letter: Jagadisa
   Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s
influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship
with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. USUALLY ANYONE

70-04-25.  Letter: Jagadisa
   Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned
souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord
Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? THE SOULS ARE ENDOWED WITH

67-08-27.  Letter: Jananivasa
   The Spirit Soul is certainly eternal and changeless; and the fall is
superficial, just like the relation between father and son cannot be broken
ever. Now we are simply in a phase of forgetfulness, and this forgetfulness
is called Maya. There is a nice example in the waning of the moon. To use
the moon appears to be changing, but in fact the moon is always the same. So
as ETERNAL SERVITORS OF KRISHNA–OUR CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION–WE FALL DOWN WHEN WE TRY TO BECOME THE ENJOYER, IMITATING KRISHNA. That is our downfall. Krishna is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by
Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya.
K.C. gives us the opportunity of rendering service to Krishna, and this
service attitude only can replace us on our original position. Please
therefore, continue to chant faithfully, and Krishna will reveal Himself, by
His Causeless Mercy, and you will know everything automatically. I shall, of
course always be ready and anxious to answer any question you have.

  69-06-07. Letter: Uttamasloka
   Please accept my blessings. I am very glad to receive your letter (undated), and I have noted the contents that you had left the temple but now you have returned again. This is most encouraging, because it means that Krishna is very kind upon you. Although you left Him, He did not allow you to go away. It is His special favor upon you. As individuals there may be disagreement sometimes, but that is quite natural. Even in ordinary family affairs there is sometimes disagreement, but that does not mean immediately the disagreeing members shall leave the family. Similarly our Krishna Consciousness Movement means we are all gathering together in families of Krishna. ACTUALLY WE ARE ETERNAL FAMILY MEMBERS OF THE LORD, BUT DUE TO OUR MISUSE OF INDEPENDENCE WE HAVE NOW FORGOTTEN OUR ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP WITH KRISHNA, EXACTLY LIKE A MAN WHO IS MAD FORGETS HIS FAMILY RELATIONSHIP AND LOITERS IN THE STREET. But when he is again in his normal mental condition, he remembers his family members and goes back to them. Similarly this Krishna Consciousness Movement is a treatment for reviving the memory that we all belong to Krishna’s family. So we are trying to establish a replica of Krishna’s family in this material world wherein there is no material activities. To avoid the material activities means to follow the four regulative principles and to engage ourselves constantly in Krishna Consciousness activities and to have the association of pure devotees. We should not give indulgence to our senses more than what is required just to keep body and soul together. We should not engage ourselves in very difficult tasks, and we should not talk anything more than what is necessary for spreading Krishna Consciousness. We should follow the regulative principles, regard being had to situation, circumstances and objectives. We should not be greedy and we should not mix with persons not interested in Krishna. In this way, we can make steady progress and maintain our membership in Krishna’s family. Thus, at the end of this life we will enter actually into the spiritual world. So your main business should be to spread Sankirtana, becoming tolerant as the tree and becoming humbler than the grass. If you have anytime any difficulty, please try to settle up in the above way, but do not leave the company of devotees. That will not help you, even though there may seem to be some difficulties.

.740606BG.GEN                 Lectures
   Just like father gives some capital to the son: “You do some business.” Now, you lose the money or increase it hundred times; that depends on you. Similarly, Krsna has given us. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and Krsna has given us. THE FIRST BEGINNING BODY IS BRAHMA, VERY EXALTED BODY. BUT ON ACCOUNT OF OUR ABOMINABLE ACTIVITIES, FROM BRAHMA, WE COME DOWN TO BECOME THE WORM OF STOOL. This is called karma, ksetra.
“Bg Introduction
   Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship  which cannot be had by everyone. Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have FORGOTTEN OUR ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called SVARUPA. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship.
Note: the Gaudiya math’s Sridhara Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, Puri Maharaja etc cannot accept Srila Prabhupada even when Srila Prabhupada has quoted Chaitanya Mahaprabhu:
KRSNERA ‘NITYA-dasa’: “Every living entity is CONSTITUTIONALLY an ETERNAL SERVANT of Krsna. The soul was NITYA(eternally) serving Krsna KRSNERA ‘NITYA-dasa in lila(sport) with Krsna: but they OPPOSE Srila Prabhupada by stating BRAHMAJYOTI is the actual origin of the soul. This shows Srila Prabhupada is  REALIZED Mahabhagavata whereas Gaudiya matha camp is a bunch of mental speculators.
SB 4.29.36-37 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi
   Bhakti refers to those activities performed in the service of Lord Vasudeva. Because Lord Vasudeva is the Supreme, one should engage oneself in His service, not in the service of the demigods. Devotional service begins from the neophyte stage–the stage of observing the rules and regulations–and extends to the point of spontaneous loving service to the Lord. The purpose of all stages is to satisfy Lord Vasudeva. When one is perfectly advanced in the devotional service of Vasudeva, one becomes completely detached from the service of the body, that is, his designated position in material existence. After becoming so detached, one becomes actually perfect in knowledge and engages perfectly in the service of Lord Vasudeva. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, JIVERA ‘SVARUPA’ HAYA–KRSNERA ‘NITYA-DASA’: “Every living entity is BY CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION AN ETERNAL SERVANT OF KRSNA.” As soon as one engages in the service of Lord Vasudeva, he attains his normal constitutional position. This position is called the liberated stage. Muktir hitvanyatha-rupam svarupena vyavasthitih: in the liberated stage, one is situated in his original Krsna conscious position. He gives up all engagements in the service of matter, engagements concocted under the names of social service, national service, community service, dog service, automobile service and so many other services conducted under the illusion of “I” and mine.
Further evidence:
68-12-02.  Letter: Rayarama
   The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. THERE ARE INSTANCES WHERE MARGINAL ENERGY JIVA SOULS HAVE FALLEN FROM THE SPIRITUAL WORLD, JUST LIKE JAYA AND VIJAYA. SO THE POTENCY TO FALL UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE LOWER ENERGY IS ALWAYS THERE. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as Krishna’s MARGINAL ENERGY.
69-10-27.     Letter: Upendra
   Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. CONSTITUTIONALLY EVERY LIVING ENTITY, EVEN IF HE IS IN THE VAIKUNTHA LOKA, HAS CHANCE OF FALLING DOWN. THEREFORE THE LIVING ENTITY IS CALLED MARGINAL ENERGY. BUT WHEN THE FALLDOWN HAS TAKEN PLACE FOR THE CONDITIONED SOUL IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ASCERTAIN. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.
71-10-09.  Letter: Upendra
   So far your question, the soul is fundamentally pure but he has an aptitude to come to the impure state of material contamination. HE IS THEREFORE CALLED TATASTHA OR MARGINAL. HE HAS GOT THE LIBERTY OF STAYING WITHIN THE PURE STATE OR BECOMING CONTAMINATED. THAT IS HIS CHOICE. THIS MARGINAL POINT CAN BE UNDERSTOOD IN THIS WAY; JUST LIKE YOU ARE STANDING ON THE SHORE OF THE SEA. SO YOU CAN REMAIN ON THE LAND OR SOMETIMES YOU CAN JUMP INTO THE WATER TO ENJOY AS YOU WILL SEE ON THE BEACHES. So many young boys are enjoying. But that is dangerous at the same time. One who does not know swimming expertly well he may become drowned. SIMILARLY THE SOUL FROM THE SPIRITUAL PLATFORM SOMETIMES JUMPS OVER THE MATERIAL OCEAN OF NESCIENCE. The Vedic knowledge gives him specific instruction how to swim over but if he is a rascal, he does not take the instruction through the bonafide representative, the spiritual master, and he becomes drowned. That is the position. The Vedic instruction is so nice that the soul, when he jumps over this material ocean, the Vedic instruction teaches him how to swim and come back again to the shore. This swimming process, according to Vedic instruction, is called sacrifice, charity and penance. One who learns these techniques of swimming over the ocean of nescience, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. One who does not take to this swimming process, he becomes drowned. In the Bhagavad-gita this is stated iccha dyesa samutthena . . . svarge yanti parantapa which means deluded by desire to enjoy the material world and becoming envious of Krishna, one comes to this material world. (Bhagavad-gita, 7.27). So read our literature profusely and you will get sufficient knowledge.
670218CC.SF                  Lectures
Ravindra-svarupa: If the brahmajyoti is in the spiritual sky, how could we reach it in our mind? Is it in our mind also?
Prabhupada: It is here also. Just like the sunshine, when it is covered by cloud, the sunshine is also there. Do you follow? You see that the sky is covered, but still you say, “It is day.” Why? The sunshine is there. Similarly, brahmajyoti is here also. Sarvam khalu iti brahma: “Everything is Brahman.” But it is covered by maya. Therefore the full-fledged brahmajyoti, you cannot see.
Ravindra-svarupa: I thought it was a place that was far away.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is… Just like above the cloud there is sunshine, fully. We have seen it in an aeroplane. This airlines, U.S. airlines, they say, “Friendly skies.” So go to the friendly sky. Why do you remain here, nonsense sky, always covered with cloud? Go to the friendly sky. Just go above the cloud. The cloud is maya. Go above the maya. Then you see. You are seeing already, but it is not full-fledged experience. Everything we are seeing. We have experienced God’s power, God’s energy. But because we are in ignorance, therefore we cannot conceive perfectly. And as soon as you are above the maya… Mayam etam taranti te. That maya you can, I mean to say, surpass simply by Krsna consciousness. As you become full-fledged Krsna conscious, oh, then you see always brahmajyoti and Brahman and Krsna and everything. And so far your present condition is, you are seeing also just now. Because without Brahman, there cannot be any existence. So one has to learn. In the flower you can see. In the tree you can see. In the taste you can see. In the water you can see. In the sound you can see. That is all stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Raso ‘ham apsu kaunteya: “I am the taste of the water.” Water is so popular, so tasteful, to every living entity. Man, beast, birds–anyone–water requires. Why? There is a nice taste, quench our thirst. And Krsna says, raso ‘ham apsu kaunteya: “That taste in water, I am.” So if you are Krsna conscious, if you know from the sastras that “This taste is Krsna,” then at once you become Krsna conscious while drinking water. “I am sound in the sky.” So, as soon as there is some sound, “Oh, here is Krsna.” In this way, you study Krsna. You’ll see. In the taste of water you’ll find Krsna. In the sound vibration you’ll find Krsna. If there is somebody very powerful, you’ll find him, Krsna. This description are there in the Bhagavad-gita. This is Krsna consciousness. Yes?
Devotee: Swamiji, I’m trying to… You said that, one time, that brahmajyoti is like the pure light, and it’s filtered in the material world through the modes?
Prabhupada: Yes. Material world means three modes.
Devotee: So is that like…? Well… Because the modes don’t exist in the spiritual world. Is that right?
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like if you go above the cloud, there is no cloud. That’s all. But there is. In a certain portion of the sky, there is cloud. And that cloud is also not permanent. Sometimes sky is clear of all clouds, but sometimes cloud is there. The cloud is generating in the sky and it is vanquished in the sky. Similarly, this material world is sometimes being manifested and sometimes there is no manifestation, simply spiritual. Spiritual is always eternal. The sky, sunshine, is always eternal. Take this crude example. But the cloud is not eternal. It comes and goes, although cloud is a product of the same sunshine. Cloud is not independent. By interaction of sunshine, there is cloud, and that cloud is… There is no cloud. Similarly, this material world is just like cloud. It appears. It acts. When there is cloud, there is torrents of rain. Oh, there are so many productions on account of rain. Everything becomes green. So we give so much importance to the cloud, and it is important also, but it is temporary. As soon as the cloud is over, the greenness is gone. There is no rain. Nothing, nothing. And when the sky is clear, you’ll see, “Oh, where is cloud? Where is cloud?” Similarly, this maya means it appears like the cloud, and it disappears like the cloud, but the eternal brahmajyoti remains.
Bhaktijana: Did Krsna create us for to serve Him?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bhaktijana: Did Krsna create us to serve Him?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhaktijana: And to enjoy us?
Prabhupada: Yes. Very nice. So we should prepare ourselves to our healthy condition. That is our healthy condition. As soon as we understand that Krsna created us… Krsna created… There is no creation. Just like if I say that my hand is created, no, it is not created. As long as the body is there, the hand is there. Otherwise, there is no meaning of body. Similarly, we are not created. Krsna is always there; we are also always there. And there are millions and millions of liberated souls who are engaged in Krsna. They never misuse their independence. And we small quantity, we misused our independence. We wanted to enjoy separately. Therefore we are conditioned.
Bhaktijana: But there are, there are many…?
Prabhupada: …liberated souls. They are never conditioned. They never become conditioned. Yes?
Devotee: You mean they never were conditioned at any time or…
Prabhupada: Eh?
Devotee: You said there were millions of souls…
Prabhupada: Yes. They were never conditioned. They were never conditioned, never conditioned. They are called nitya-mukta, eternally liberated. We are only simple few, this material world. Just like I have several times told you that the prison house. The population of prison house is nothing in comparison to the whole population. What is there? Suppose in New York there is a prison house. Oh, what may be the number? A few thousand maybe. But here, millions. Similarly, the liberated souls are millions; we are only few thousands, or hundreds. Ekamsena sthito jagat. We are thinking this universe is very great. It is nothing in comparison to the whole creation of the Lord. You are seeing only universe, but there are millions of universes like this. All together, they are ekamsena sthito jagat. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. This is only a part of Krsna’s creation. One devotee of Lord Krsna, er, Lord Caitanya, requested, “My dear Lord, You have come to deliver all the fallen souls. You please take all the conditioned souls of this universe, and if You think they are not competent, they are sinful, You can give me all the sin to me. I shall suffer for them, but You kindly take.” So this is the desire of a pure devotee, that “All may go with Krsna. Let them become liberated. I shall suffer all their…” Now, Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied that “Suppose I keep your request. I take these, all the living entities of this universe. Do you think, is there any loss of this material world? It is just like a one mustard seed in the bag of mustard seeds.” So this universe is just like one mustard seed in one big bag of mustard seeds. Can you count how many mustard seeds are there in a big bag? So the idea was that Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied that “Even this universe is delivered fully, oh, there is a big bag of mustard seeds. It is only one grain.” There are so many conditioned souls, and these conditioned souls are only insignificant in comparison to the liberated souls. Just imagine what is the quantity of liberated souls.
Bhaktijana: How could we make a poor choice if we were part and parcel of Krsna? How could we have chosen the material world?
Prabhupada: Oh, because you have got independence. Don’t you see so many students come. They go away again. Yesterday Kirtanananda went to call Ranchora. He said, “Oh, I have forgotten this!” So you can forget. There is another student. He was also our student, Wally. “Oh, you can go immediately!” Suppose if you… “Oh, I don’t care for this Krsna consciousness Society. Who calls you? You can go.” That independence is there. We can misuse.
Bhaktijana: But Krsna will always be there if we want to go back?
Prabhupada: Eh? Krsna is always prepared to accept you. He’s always prepared. But because He has given us independence, we misuse it and we fall under the clutches of maya. That is our misfortune. We create this misfortune, and we can create our good fortune. “Man is the architect of his own fortune.” So if you become Krsna conscious, it is to your good fortune. If you become maya conscious, it is to your bad fortune. You are the creator.
Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all…, do they also have the independence?
Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that “I am meant for Krsna’s service,” and they are happy in Krsna’s service.
Bhaktijana: Could they ever misuse it?
Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.
Prabhupada: NO! THERE IS POSSIBILITY, BUT HE DOES NOT COME. JUST LIKE AFTER PUTTING YOUR HAND IN THE FIRE, YOU NEVER PUT IT AGAIN IF YOU ARE REALLY INTELLIGENT. SO THOSE WHO ARE GOING BACK TO GODHEAD, THEY BECOME INTELLIGENT. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. So if one is intelligent enough, if he has got actually the bitter taste of this material world, he’ll never agree. He’ll never agree. But those who have not advanced to such knowledge, oh, they think, “Oh, this material enjoyment is very nice. Let me taste it and let me do business in my sannyasi life, and stealthily and privately, let me enjoy.” These things are going on. That means they have no taste. They come to hospital-making or this philanthropy. This come again. Sthanad bhrastad patanty adhah. Ye ‘nye aravindaksa vimukta-maninah. “Those fools who are thinking that ‘Simply by thinking myself, “I am God, I am Brahman, I have become liberated,” ‘ ” but ye ‘nye ‘ravindaksa vimukta-maninas tvayy asta-bhavat, “but there is no knowledge about You, Krsna,” aruhya krcchrena param padam, “they, after performing so much austerity and penances, they rise up to the highest position, Brahman realization, but,” patanty adhah, “they fall down.” We have got so many instances. They take sannyasa. They say that brahma satyam jagan mithya: “This world is false. Brahman is truth.” But after some days, they come to politics, they come to sociology, they come to hospital, they come to this and that. That’s all. Finished. Brahman finished. Patanty adhah. They must fall down because they have no shelter in Krsna. Just like the sputnik goes very high, clap, hear clap. Uh, come down again. Where you’ll go? Yes. Simply for the time being clapping, that’s all. (laughs) But the fools, they are so nonsense, they are satisfied with that temporary clapping. That’s all.
Bhaktijana: Has my soul ever been liberated?
Prabhupada: That you know. I do not know.
Bhaktijana: If I was once liberated…
Prabhupada: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. Don’t you sometimes dream that tiger is eating you? Is there any tiger? You are simply thinking. So if you keep in Krsna consciousness, that nonsense thinking will go away. Therefore we have to keep ourself always in Krsna-thinking so that this dream will never come. If you are always awakened, then dream never comes. So keep yourself always awakened by Krsna consciousness. All right. Distribute prasadam. (end)               Conversations
Svarupa Damodara: The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material.
Prabhupada: HE HAS GOT ALREADY SPIRITUAL BODY. MATERIAL BODY IS HIS COVERING. IT IS UNNATURAL. REAL BODY IS SPIRITUAL. JUST LIKE YOUR COAT, THIS IS UNNATURAL. BUT YOUR REAL BODY IS NATURAL. OTHERWISE HOW TRANSMIGRATION IS POSSIBLE? I AM ACCEPTING DIFFERENT UNNATURAL BODIES. UNNATURAL MEANS TO MY CONSTITUTION. MY REAL CONSTITUTIONAL BODY IS SERVANT OF KRSNA. SO, SO LONG I DO NOT COME TO THAT POSITION, I REMAIN SERVANT OF NATURE AND I GET SO MANY BODIES. According to the nature’s direction I am getting body, I am giving it up, again I am desiring something, I am getting another body. This is going on. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah, ahankara-vimudhatma. He is a rascal. He is thinking, “I am this body.” Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese ‘rjuna tisthati, bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya. This is a yantra, machine. And we are traveling many species of life, all riding on this car, given by nature. Yantrarudhani mayaya. Maya has given this vehicle, anywhere wandering, up and down, sometimes demigod, sometimes dog. This is going on. And in this wandering process, if he gets in touch with a devotee, then his real spiritual life begins. Otherwise he has to go on, rotating.
   ei rupe brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva
guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija
Svarupa Damodara: Mahaprabhu?
Prabhupada: Yes, Caitanya Mahaprabhu. By mercy of spiritual master, the mercy of Krsna, he gets the seed of devotional service, and if he cultivates, then his life becomes successful. Otherwise he has to rotate, sometimes up, sometimes down. Sometimes this grass, sometimes lion.
Paramahamsa: But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return. But nevertheless, Jagai, and…, the two gatekeepers, they returned?
Prabhupada: THERE IS RETURN, THAT IS VOLUNTARY. Return there is.
Paramahamsa: If we want.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Fall down?
Prabhupada: YES. AS SOON AS WE TRY, “OH, THIS MATERIAL WORLD IS VERY NICE,” “YES,” KRSNA SAYS, “YES, YOU GO.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. OTHERWISE WHAT IS THE MEANING OF FREE WILL? EVERY LIVING ENTITY HAS GOT A LITTLE FREE WILL. AND KRSNA IS SO KIND, HE GIVES HIM OPPORTUNITY, “ALL RIGHT, YOU ENJOY LIKE THIS.” Just like some of our students, Krsna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, “Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here.” He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare, nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare. The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The maya may be there, but maya captures him who is not a devotee of Krsna. That’s all. Therefore, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: “Anyone who surrenders unto Me, maya does not interfere anymore.”
Paramahamsa: So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: But then again there’s this constant struggle with our lower nature? We are constantly fighting our desires even though we want to serve Krsna? This continues?
Prabhupada: What is that? I do not follow.
Paramahamsa: Well, like, many devotees, they experience the difficulty that although they sincerely want to love God and serve Him, yet their body is almost like another dictator within them.
Prabhupada: Yes. That means he is strongly under the grip of maya.
Paramahamsa: Even though the desire exists.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like a thief, he knows that “If I steal, I will be arrested. I will be put into jail.” And he has seen that one thief, he has stolen, he is arrested. Still he commits theft. He knows everything. Why does he commit theft?
Paramahamsa: Why?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Ignorance?
Prabhupada: Yes.
730806BG.LON                 Lectures
   BECAUSE WE HAVE ALSO COME DOWN FROM VAIKUNTHA SOME MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF YEARS AGO. ANADI KARAMA-PHALE. ANADI MEANS BEFORE THE CREATION. We living entities, we are eternal. Even the creation is annihilated after millions and trillions of years, the living entities, they are not annihilated. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire. They remain. So when this whole cosmic manifestation will be annihilated, the living entities will remain in the body of Visnu. Then when again another creation will take place, they will come out again to fulfill their desires. The real desire is how to go to home, back to Godhead.
   So this chance is given. So if this chance is misused, this life, human form of life, it is very, very risky. Again we will have to accept the cycle of birth and death. AND NOT ONLY THAT, IF WE DO NOT FULFILL THE MISSION OF LIFE, THEN AGAIN THERE WILL BE ANNIHILATION OF THE WHOLE CREATION AND WE WILL HAVE TO STAY WITHIN THE BODY OF VISNU FOR MILLIONS AND TRILLIONS OF YEARS. AGAIN WE WILL HAVE TO COME. SO THEREFORE IT IS CALLED ANADI KARAMA-PHALE. ANADI MEANS “BEFORE THE CREATION.” THIS IS GOING ON. And to teach the befooled living entities, Krsna personally comes. Krsna is very much anxious to take us back to home, back to Godhead. Because we are part and parcel of Krsna. Suppose if your son is loitering in the street, are you not anxious, “Oh, there may be some accident, and the poor boy will be killed.” So you go, try to find out. Similarly, Krsna’s position is like that. We are in this material world simply suffering life after life. Duhkhalayam asasvatam. This place is miserable. But maya’s illusion, we are taking this miserable condition of life as happiness. This is called maya.

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