PADA is available all the time at: http://blog.myspace.com/52199499. PADA
news is an information service for the devotees of ISKCON. We do not always
endorse all the letters we get from others, nor can we independently verify
each and every statement found in letters to PADA. Let us know if you do
not wish to receive this news letter. Thanks Puranjana dasa 707-477-4102
============================================
1) BHAKTA DASA's (William Benedict's) "living guidance" -- "cooperate" with
child molester messiahs?
2) TRIPURARI SON UPDATE (and Tripurari clan's mean dog bite death threats).
3) BHAKTI TIRTHA SWAMI -- Recollections of a Personal Servant: JAYADEVA DAS
(Good news, more "ex-servants" writing exposes).
4) Could Chandravali Decide to Leave Goloka? BY: PUNDARIKAKSA DASI
============================================
* Please visit Prabhupadanugas' Press at http://www.prabhupadanugaspress. com/
* Here is your chance to call Svavasa's home phone, and tell him his
buggery guru lineage is bogus: (310) 204-5635. Heee Heee.
* POISON CASE VIDEO: http://www.krishnatube.com/
* Way Cool Indian dancers:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8712184842607043296&pr=goog-sl
* Tripurari's son photo:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2007/02/12/MNGT0O34OO1.DTL&o=1
* (New) harekrishnatemple.com
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YucAG06TLLc
* Govindam http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9foQOoekzQ (song by Prapanam dasa)
* Prabhupada's letters: http://sangalog.blogspot.com/
A Few Devotee Contacts (please let us know if you want to be added, changed
or deleted):
California, Berkeley: ccr2k@yahoo.com
California, Lancaster: Mahatma dasa
California, Los Angeles: zakheim@earthlink.net (Naranarayan dasa)
California, Monterey: Jagganatha Swami dasa
California, San Francisco, pada@neteze.com
Florida, Alachua: naveen.khurana@att.net
Mississippi: Carriere (near New Talavan)
New York, Buffalo: Mahavegavati dd -- mvvd@yahoo.com,
New York, Long Island: iskcontoday.com
North Carolina - Prabhupada Village, Sandy Ridge (336) 593-8108
festivalofindia.org
Tennesee: Kapindra Swami pss108@juno.com
Texas (Dallas): gordhan_goyani@yahoo.com
Texas (San Antonio): info@iskconsanantonio.com
Washington, Seattle: (Dhamaghosa dasa 206-729-0111) dasdasdas@aol.com
West Virginia: kamsahanta@hotmail.com
Canada, Montreal: n_allard@videotron.ca
Canada, Montreal: www.radhadamodara.net
Canada: http://www.prabhupadaconnect.com/
Canada, Toronto: Hasti Gopla dasa: hasti90@hotmail.com
India, Bangalore: manjunath36@iskconbangalore.org
==============================================
"Eliot Applestein" <eliotapplestein@verizon.net> To: pada@neteze.com
Subject: HK names
I was in the DC temple from 1975-77 and then left. I luckily "missed" all
of the later nastiness that developed later and which is highlighted in
your website. I am wondering if there is any document that gives the names
of devotees before they were initiated. I once visited New Vrndavan in the
late 1990s when I was passing through on a trip and a devotee there said
that ISKCON had such a document. I would be very interested in trying to
find some of the devotees I lived with back then. Regards, Eliot (Gabhira das)
P.S. I once received a letter from Srila Prabhupada thanking me for
starting the first HK ministry at a university--University of Maryland.
========================
1) BHAKTA DASA (William G. Benedict). Thanks for telling us we need to get
the "living" guidance from Gaura Govinda Maharaja whose "living advice" (as
he told me personally) is: "We need to cooperate, tolerate and work with
the GBC" i.e. those who are placing child molester messiahs (posing as
Vishnupada no less) onto Srila Prabhupada's guru seat. And they are placing
the photos of their child molester "guru successor to Srila Prabhupada" on
Krishna's altars, directly comparing their molesters "in quality" (shaksat
hari tvena) to God Almighty. Even Mr. Snuffles the cat does not "cooperate
with" GGM's child molester messiahs, why should we stoop to your level?
Your regime's idea of "cooperating" with child molesters posing as
Vishnupada gurus ALSO means: children get molested under your scheme. And
did we forgot to mention, Gaura Govinda Maharaja was "voted in" by
molesters at a pedophile guru's recornation ceremony. So you are concocting
things, you are de facto advocating juxtaposing pedophiles with Krishna,
His successors and Srila Prabhupada. And in sum you are not giving any good
"living advice," and you are a peril to children to boot. You should be
apologizing to the children who were molested under GGM's regime, not
proudly promoting same. You folks are shameless. Thanks pd
=======================
2) TRIPURARI SON UPDATE (and Tripurari clan's mean dog bite death threats).
First the good news, Tripurari's clan finally noticed that Tripurari's son
actually exists. Halley-freaking-lool-yah. The bad news is that Tripurari's
clan has "thanked" us for our calling attention to this problem in a
somewhat sub-violent manner. Tripurari's clan member (Madhumangala dasa /
New Orleans) got VERY ANGRY over our even feeling sorry for Tripurari's
son. No mercy towards children is allowed, plain and simple! So Tripurari's
spokesman Madhumangala dasa got very frenzied and vociferous with PADA,
being worked up into a state of pathological anger under "the living
guidance" of Tripurari? Or what? And he wrote to PADA numerous times with
his odd messages: "Demented Lies, Liar, Psycho, Take Some Prozac,
Psycho-prozac lies, Liar, Pinocchio, False, Bogus etc." OK, so the photo of
Tripurari's son in the San Francisco newspapers is a lie? Why not sue the
newspapers instead of PADA then?
Oh they cannot do that, since suing the newspapers will not work because
the newspaper knows the story is true, so go harass PADA? What amazes us is
that meanwhile there is not one iota of concern for the son namely, Nama
Bhakti Beaudry. And anyone who advocates for the son is a "liar, demon,
psycho, offender" -- the usual stuff. And Madhumangala is a graduate of the
University Of New Orleans in 1998, for "Nursing." Aren't "nurses" supposed
to be kind and munificent to others? Why not say, jeepers we should all
help the son if for no other reason: that the son's problems will burden
our revered Guru, His Divine Holiness, Royal Lord And Master Of The Jagat,
and Philo, Spiritual Master of The Three Worlds -- or at least the worlds
where gurus get voted in by perverts and deviants, Tripurari pada.
Apparently, just thinking of actually helping someone -- never seems to
occur? There is no mercy. At the very least, try to help?
Moreover we told Madhumangala dasa that Srila Prabhupada had said that none
of his followers were even fit for sannyasa in early 1976, moreover that
"everyone should get married" -- and Madhumangala still replied that "this
is all lies" too. Why is Tripurari training his followers to de facto call
Srila Prabhupada a liar? This pretty much proves our point: that there does
not seem to be much of anybody really advocating for the abused, neglected
and abandoned children. Rather there is considerable anger and resentment
towards the children themselves, the victims. And there is no small amount
of anger towards Srila Prabhupada because he said these folks are not even
fit for sannyasa, what to speak of "sum total of the demigods" gurus? If
they are not fit for sannyasa, then how are they fir to me messiah gurus?
And why is Srila Prabhupada a liar because he says they are not fit for
guru? And aren't Tripurari's guru sabha people those who are the
psycho-prozac types, since a number of his guru sabha have been taking all
kinds of drugs?
The only good news here is that at least Mr. Madhumangala dasa does not
want to kill the victimized children, and then chop them up and feed them
to dogs, like our heartfelt bogus guru protector pals Steve Voith and his
guru Mukunda dasa of England. The bottom line is that we do not see the
followers of Tripurari rallying forth to help the son, we do not see the
followers of Tripurari's shiksha guru BV Narayana Maharaja rallying forth
to help the son, we do not see the followers of Sridhara Maharaja in
general helping either.
There is no plan to help the victims of Tripurari's cult, just like there
is not much of a plan for ISKCON's victims, except to spend hundreds of
thousands of dollars on lawyers to make sure the kids do not get much
compensation. The whole effort seems to be: suppressing any help for the
children of ISKCON?
Madhumangala das is a New Orleans devotee who was formerly initiated by
Bhakti Tirtha swami, one of the biggest boot lickers of homosexual
pedophile "gurus" like Kirtanananda swami. Of course a devotee friend of
ours was beaten to a pulp by a disciple of Bhakti Tirtha while he was
visiting in Washington DC many years ago. Bhakti Tirtha even requested a
known child abuser to come and sing kirtans for his departure. Bhakti
Tirtha was a fanatical follower of Kirtanananda (see article by Bhakti
Tirtha's ex-servant below) while all the child molesting and murders were
going on, etc. So the love of these "gurus" never seems to be lost on any
of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada, what to speak of their guru's own
children?
And the accounts of Tripurari's wife being depressed because he abandoned
her and the son are not true? What is not true here? The Anderson Valley
newspapers also printed our previous stories about Tripurari and no one
sued that newspaper for making false statements? What part of this is "a
lie"? Madhumangala never tell us? We are citing the newspapers, the
Christian ladies who are helping prisoners like Nama Bhakti Beaudry, the
former servants of Tripurari and Bhakti Tirtha et al., and all these people
"liars"? Worse, the Anderson Valley newspaper editor says he has personally
seen Tripurari driving around all the time with -- his young female
assistant. In sum, the more we look, the more we find people who agree with
us.
So finally this Madhumangala fellow calls PADA editor on the phone and he
is shouting somewhat incomprehensibly because he is so angry. Of course he
will not get angry at the people who neglect their children? He is only
angry at people who defend children? And he says that we have to retract
our statements against Tripurari, ... or else! Yet we pointed out, these
are not "our" statements, we are merely citing other sources? He says so
what "you are offending my guru and I will stop you, people can kill those
who offend their gurus." OK, this is a death threat. Here is PADA's
response to the Tripurari clan:
Madhumangala dasa just called us on the phone to tell us "there are
consequences to offending his guru, people kill for their guru." Clearly,
this is a death threat. Since Tripurari is our neighbor, and he is inciting
his people to threaten to kill others,
nothing new because he was working with the GBC while they were threatening
to kill folks, we are sending a letter detailing Tripurari's cult's threat
(and its actual source: Tom Beaudry) to: (1) The Mendocino County District
Attorney, (2) The Mendocino Sheriff, (3) The Mendocino Police, (4) The
Mendocino Newspapers, (5) My neighbor who is a worker at the Sheriff's
office, (5) FBI, San Francisco, (6) Berkeley Police officer Joe Sanchez.
Thanks! Death threats are not tolerated by PADA ... "People (like
Tripurari's followers) kill for their guru." OK then! We personally do not
kill people for any reason whatsoever, it is just not our style. We do not
even care if we get killed either, just want the cops to go after Tripurari
if that occurs ... ys pd
============================
3) BHAKTI TIRTHA SWAMI -- Recollections of a Personal Servant BY: JAYADEVA
DAS
Today and Tomorrow we see the Vyasa Puja celebrations for my former
spiritual master Bhakti Tirtha Swami taking place at Gita Nagari and
worldwide. His disciples are also celebrating and promoting his biography
"Black Lotus" written by Satyaraja das, but heavily edited and "expanded
upon" by Bhakti Tirtha Swami's most senior disciples such as Vraja Lila
dasi. In a few days I will be posting for the benefit of the devotees my
complete recollections of my time as personal servant to Bhakti Tirtha
Swami, it will include the following eye openers:
1) How BTS carried on an intimate relationship with crazy Kirtanananda -
sponsoring the ongoing printing of Kirtanananda's books and distribution of
such in Africa
2) How BTS still saw Kirtanananda as an authority and as his siksa guru
3) How BTS gave several of his disciples "Siddha Pranali" diksa -- giving
them identities such as Gopas and Gopis and sadhana such as lila meditations
4) How BTS would instruct disciples to "meet him on the astral plane"
during sleep time to "receive confidential instructions"
5) How BTS encouraged racism and segregation amongst his black and white
disciples
6) How BTS black bodied disciples saw him as "the saviour of the black
race" and he encouraged that mindset
7) How BTS disciples have edited the biography and added fiction and gross
exaggerations
8) How BTS encouraged disciples to take siksa from Tripurari Maharaja,
Narayana Maharaja and other non ISKCON sources
* [PADA: Tripurari was trying to get voted in as a GBC guru and was thus
begging Kirtanananda to vote him in in the 1980s, these guys are all
connected.]
9) How large amounts of money came into BTS possession and how it was spent
for his own use and that for his closest disciples
The above will be supported by unprecedented evidence and will expose a lot
of people who are still acting as "leaders" in ISKCON.
Stay tuned, Jayadeva dasa
[PADA: Thanks Jayadeva. Yes, people always ask us "why have the bogus GBC
leaders (like Bhakti Tirtha) been chanting to Kirtanananda
and sitting at his guru seat, when EVERYONE can see Kirtanananda is COVERED
with the hands of fifty little boys, and it is evident that he is a
pedophile"? And Bhakti Tirtha claims he is "A Spiritual Warrior," but
Bhakti Tirtha fought AGAINST those of us who opposed molesters, and some of
our friends were beaten up for not worshipping molesters, and he said we
are the deviants and molesters are HIS shiksha GURUS! He is a pedophile
"shiksha guru" worshipper, so he "went to war" but -- against children!
Thanks pd]
==================================
4) Could Chandravali Decide to Leave Goloka?
BY: PUNDARIKAKSA DASI
[PADA: First of all, Srila Prabhupada did NOT want his followers and his
ISKCON society to begin a controversy over the "fall of the soul from
Vaikuntha" issue:
"Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use
of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of
this conditional existence--as much as a patient should take care for
treating his disease more--and less waste his time in finding out the cause
of his disease." SP Letter to Upendra, 10-27-69
First of all notice the fact that we should NOT be "arguing" about this
point. Period. Next, there is nothing to argue about since the "soul's
origin" (part of jiva tattva) is made very clear by Srila Prabhupada, "we
were all originally in Krishna's lila or sport," "jivera swarupa haya,
nitya Krishna dasa," "the original constitutional position of the jiva is
to be Krishna's eternal servant." Very clear, we originated in Krishna's
presence and this is why Srila Prabhupada also wrote to Revatinanadana that
"we have all seen Krishna face to face." Srila Prabhupada repeats this
point over and over, "we became envious of Krishna" etc. so it should not
be argued? We should accept the words of the guru?
So it is a little astonishing that the bogus GBC's "authorities" like
Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura govinda/ BV and BP Puri maharajas et
al. started a big imbroglio complaining about Srila Prabhupada's idea that
we "fall from Vaikuntha (the spiritual world)" just after 1977. Srila
Prabhupada says, do not waste your time arguing about this issue, and yet
that is all they do all the time. Essentially they are attacking Srila
Prabhupada's view that ALL souls are "originally with Krishna." From PADA's
perspective this imbroglio was created intentionally by these deviants so
that they could divert from the real issue, that Srila Prabhupada's society
had been hijacked by deviants, and these "swami advisors" were sneaking
their way into authority posts in ISKCON by "working with" the deviants as
their "shiksha and rasika advisors."
And all of this seems oddly connected to Narayana Maharaja's saying that
the reason many gurukuli children were molested is "they had bad karma."
The children have the bad karma of coming in contact with Narayana
Maharaja's molester cult, since he has been the main scholar backing the
pedophile worship cult. This begs the question, why did Narayana Maharaja
say that those of us who disagreed with his pedophile worship regime are
"poison"? Why does he not try to change people's "bad" karma? Again, this
effort tries to blame some "random cause" -- when we all know that Narayana
Maharaja was helping cause the molesting by backing their regime.
In any case, there is no intelligent reason that Krishna does anything, it
is all random fall down, random karma and so on. The "random appearance in
the material world" is what we are taught in Episcopal Christianity as
well, i.e. most souls are ALWAYS with God, while a few others (ok us
unfortunate knuckleheads) are randomly put here in this world -- for no
apparent reason. Of course as soon as we try to fix people's "random bad
karma" such as child molesting, then we are poison? And in short "Krishna
the gambler" gave the residents of the spiritual world four aces, but you
unlucky suckers were given a mixed flush, so you are destined to fail and
lose from square one because -- God is not fair. Then again this is like
the theory of "the chosen people," some are randomly selected and some are
not etc.
Hence the basic problem with these thinkers is, they blame God for all of
the suffering of the material world. This is why some Christians get angry,
"Why has God put me here"? They fail to recongize that they desired
independence. So these "Krishna" deviant's ideas are akin to the
Christian's jiva tattva. Their idea is: God has sent you to sit in the
corner and wear a dunce hat, but you did nothing wrong? So they are taking
away OUR original choice: to serve God or Maya. They say: you had no
choice, you were never in Vaikuntha to "decide" whether to stay there or
not. Krishna made the choice for you, and since Krishna is not too balanced
or just, He made the wrong choice for you. Too bad!
Yet the Vedas say the opposite, that the basic propensity of the souls is
to have DESIRES, and the fallen souls DESIRED to turn away from Krishna
(the two birds analogy), but if we were never with Him, then how did we
turn away? Evidently, the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Gaura Govinda/ Tripurari
sabha like this idea because it means: they are not responsible for their
being here. All because Krishna is a rambling, gambling dice roller: you
either get a lucky roll or you don't. God has no judgement / justice. And
in sum God is randomly nasty to some of us, and randomly He rewards others,
willy nilly. "God is a sort of rambling, gambling man," perhaps Sridhara
Maharaja listens to too much country Western music?
So this is one reason PADA has accepted Srila Prabhupada's idea, it is
superior to the Christian's "random placement of the soul" idea. Srila
Prabhupada says that the thinkers who say that God acts randomly -- have no
brains to understand what is the actual plan of God. In sum they say God
has no organized process of placing the renegades here and keeping the
surrendered there? It all is going on in some disorganized, disjointed,
random process. The police might arrest you and put you in jail, or they
might take you to the governor's ball as their main guest, you just get
punished or rewarded for no reason. In short, Krishna has no rules or
guidelines, He may punish or reward for no reason. Hence God operates under
the same guidelines as "The madness of King George."
So this is the first problem with their theory, they are insulting God as a
random / unjust actor who has no intelligent capability to discriminate
that some souls are renegades who DESERVE to come down here, while other
souls are surrendered and they DESERVE to stay up there with Him. They have
no actual criteria for staying there or falling here? The Sridhara/
Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/ BV and BP Puri maharajas scheme simply
does not explain: how do some souls end up here and some stay up there with
God -- in an intelligent / justice / rules system? Worse, they BLAME GOD
for their own failure to stay up there! So God acts randomly without
intelligence.
No, there is a very controlled process. ALL OF the souls are WITH KRISHNA,
and are given equal chance to stay with God. Then, some CHOOSE to leave. It
is not some random function. The Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura
govinda/ BV and BP Puri maharaja team did not seem to care one iota for the
problems of ISKCON. Rather they began a huge debate over the "real issue,"
the fall of the soul -- and not the victimization of ISKCON and worse --
they harassed those of us trying to address the victimization. Srila
Prabhupada says that people will leave ("bloop") ISKCON, jst like we left
Vaikuntha in the first place. There is a choice involved.
So they criminally diverted attention from the real problems. And they
still are doing that. In sum they have failed to come to grips with their
complicity in supporting deviants as messiahs. Worse, they forwarded yet
another bogus theory, that the "pure devotee residents of Vaikuntha" -- are
in fact quite often deviants, criminals, womanizing drunkards,
orchestrators of murder, and that is the fate of many of their "Vaikuntha
resident pure gurus." This is the next wave of insane nonsense they
started, that their "pure devotee residents of Vaikuntha" -- are deviants.
Yet the "soul falling issue" was the exact issue Srila Prabhupada told them
to avoid and -- not -- to bother discussing?
Then, as we all know, the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/ BV
and BP Puri maharajas project began to support the bogus GBC's "diksha
gurus, shaksat hari tvena, Vishnupada, Radharani's servants, pure devotees,
rati keli siddhas and acharyas" (aka "eternal residents of Vaikuntha"). And
as we all know their -- "pure devotee's never fall program" -- immediately
produced -- "falling down from Vaikuntha" -- left, right and center,
including that their "pure devotee Vaikuntha Vishnupadas" (!) are often
having illicit sex with disciples and even children. Yet despite constant
ongoing scandals, the above "scholars" acted as apologists, cheerleaders
and position paper writers for the theory that -- pure devotees, residents
of Vaikuntha, Vishnu's padas -- are "falling down" and are indeed "engaged
in illicit sex with men, women and children."
So God is placing souls here in a chaotic way, and the behavior of His
fully surrendered dedicated pure devotees is another process of madness and
chaos. Indeed Sridhara Maharaja writes that the acharyas (residents of
Vaikuntha) "go mad" after money, women and followers. The residents of
Vaikuntha are mad criminals! Who knew! And so they said, let us keep the
discussion on the abstract "soul origin" topic so we can -- cover up for
our child molesting "mad" messiahs. Of course the GBC/ Sridhara/ Narayana/
Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda maharaja team did offer to us in 1980: "When our
rubber stamped residents of Vaikuntha are taking LSD, having illicit sex
with the wives of their disciples, beating up dissenters, neglecting
children etc., we should 'wait and see' and not do anything about it."
Swell, when the residents of Krishna loka (?) are behaving worse than
donkeys and monkeys, we are told by Sridhara Maharaja "none should
criticize."
So not only do they endorse bad behavior found in Krishna's Vaikuntha
parisad devotees, but no one can complain when a deviant juxtaposes illict
behavior into Vaikuntha. Narayana Maharaja even said that those of us who
object (i.e. do not affix deviations like child molesting to his alleged
residents of Vaikuntha) we are -- poison. Yet Narayana Maharaja's boot
lickers like Virabahu are more honest. He says that ninety five percent of
the GBC's guru / sannyasis / residents of Vaikuntha will fail. So now they
are telling us that MOST of the residents, indeed ninety five percent of
the residents of Vaikuntha -- will fail and fall. And thus only five
percent of the living beings in all the creation will remain with Krishna?
Satan wins! So there are many layers upon layers of their deviant ideas,
based on their original misconceptions, that the Vaikuntha living entities
are not ever falling, except ninety five percent of the time -- when they
are falling?
Oddly, not too many noticed the utter inconsistent hypocricies here? None
of these "scholars" seemed to notice that they are constantly disproving
their own theory. Their idea that "no one falls" IS FALSE at least by their
own process, because for starters their own rubber stamped "pure residents
of Vaikuntha" are unable to take two steps without falling? Worse, there
was a panic at one time that their "residents of Vaikuntha" might be
spreading the AIDS disease to children, which by the way has never been
clearly settled. In other words their "pure devotees who never fall down"
could not even uphold the higher standards of behavior of a donkey, monkey
or the street trash collector.
Srila Prabhupada says that the guru is a resident of Krishna loka and that
means he is pure. Whereas the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/
BV and BP Puri maharajas project says, their rubber stamped residents of
Krishna Loka gurus are also PURE, yet they admit their gurus act worse than
donkeys. Indeed an actual donkey is more pure than their "residents of
Vaikuntha." And anyone who disagrees with this process is "a bogus ritvik."
At the same time -- their Vaikuntha residents, rasika gopi assistants, and
pure devotee gurus are maybe giving AIDS to children by sexually assaulting
them? In sum, they have no idea what a resident of Vaikuntha is in the
first place, apart from all the other holes in their theories.
And then people like Sridhara Maharaja began to act as Vatican apologists
for his failed "residents of Vaikuntha" project by saying that (acharyas)
pure devotees, even Narayana Maharaja's "raskika residents of Goloka," ...
"go mad after money, women and followers" as he says in his book "Sri Guru
And His Grace." Yet Sridhara Maharaja never explains his idea: (a) He says
the residents of Vaikuntha "never fall down," yet (b) He says his gurus,
his pure residents of Vaikuntha, are simultaneously -- mostly mad fools
chasing after material exploitation? Meanwhile Gaura Govinda Maharaja wrote
a paper for the GBC saying that his pure devotee Vishnupada acharyas are
(a) always pure and simultaneously (b) often found to be -- asuras, demons.
The residents of Vaikuntha are -- demons? Notice that they always use
mutually exclusive terms which Srila Prabhupada calls "word jugglery."
And then they began to give elaborate rationalizations for how "the pure"
are often "impure," or the pure are becoming impure. They just cannot say,
ooops, Srila Prabhupada is pure, why not worship him? Instead they started
a whole elaborate process of schemes to artificially label deviants as
"residents of Vaikuntha," to justify their falling down from Vaikuntha
friends. So (a) their Vaikuntha guru "never falls," meanwhile (b) the
residents of Vaikuntha are falling, mad fools and -- "demons"? Jayadvaita
has summed their Vaikuntha guru project nicely, the Sridhara/ Narayana/
Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/ BV and BP Puri rubber stamped guru's / aka
"residents of Vaikuntha" are "engaged in illicit sex with men, women and
children." Did we forget to mention that these folks are FULL time
ASSAULTING the residents of Vaikuntha with such insults!
So from the get go, their theory was that "no one falls from Vaikuntha" yet
this has always been falling apart because most of their "pure devotees,"
at least the ones these folks have forwarded -- were (and still are)
falling down constantly. Thus there is a huge contradiction in their
position from square one. That has to be explained from the get go, that
the primary exponents of the "no fall" theory have rubber stamped hundreds
of their own concocted "pure devotees" who fall terribly into worse
behavior than the ordinary man would engage in. In sum they are hypocrites,
or worse. And at the same time -- they are discussing the falling soul
issue so they can cover up for all their guru project's molesting and
murders, general criminal chaos, degrading of ISKCON, and degrading the
status of actual pure devotees, all caused by their alleged "pure residents
of Vaikuntha."
So, before we can even discuss what it means to fall from Vaikuntha, we
have to understand that the residents there are not "engaged in illicit sex
with men, women and children," as these deviant's ersatz pure guru
residents of Vaikuntha (?) are doing left, right and center. We could go on
here, but you get the point, their idea (a) that the pure never fail, and
(b) the pure fails ninety five percent of the time, this is a contradiction
and Srila Prabhupada says contradiction is mateiral.]
** Today I read the new article by Eric Johansen where he argues that souls
in this world have fallen down from Vaikuntha and become caught in samsara.
I previously sent the Sun some articles in regard to this topic but in my
mind I decided not to persist in discussing this matter. However after
studying Eric Johansen's article it seems sensible to express a few
thoughts which I have had.
"OK", I will say. "OK, I was wrong and you are right". OK, now that I have
adopted your point of view can you please address some serious concerns I
have in regard to this.
Mahesh Raja presented the quote below by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.
760805BG.PAR Lectures:
Translator: "The question is: did we fall in this material world to find
some highest pleasure? His question is: did we fall in the material world
to experience something which is higher?
Prabhupada: I do not follow.
Yogesvara: I think his question is the husband will leave the wife because
he is dissatisfied. But if our love for Krsna originally is perfect why
should we have left?
Prabhupada: YOU HAVE LEFT... JUST LIKE SOMEBODY IS DAILY EATING PURIS AND
HALAVA, AND HE WANTS TO EAT PUFFED RICE. SO THAT TENDENCY IS THERE. THAT IS
ALSO A SIDE OF ENJOYMENT. "I am eating daily this, let me eat this." What
is the difficulty? That tendency is there. That is also enjoyment. After
all, we are hankering after enjoyment, anandamayo 'bhyasat. So different
taste we desire, that "Let me taste this, let me taste that, let me taste
that." So the real basic principle is enjoyment, sense enjoyment. That's
all."
[PADA: And Jaya and Vijaya also fell down from Vaikuntha. The whole idea of
the soul leaving by his own volition actually paralells the other Christian
idea that Adam and Even were "with God," but they wanted to experience "the
forbidden fruit." The main point is that the infinitesimal jiva souls were
-- originally -- with God. Next, there is the Christian example of Satan.
Once again, he too was with God, indeed he was a highly placed Angel no
less. And yet "he became envious." So this is another paralell. The main
idea of Srila Prabhupada, and even the Christian idea to some extent -- is
that we "wanted to enjoy the forbidden fruit," or "we became envious." That
means, we were with God at the beginning. Otherwise, how could we want to
"enjoy separate from Him," or "become envious of Him," if we were never
with Him? Therefore, the main point is that we "originated" with God, or as
Srila Prabhupada says "we were all originally Krishna conscious living
beings."]
** A number of questions arise in my mind after reading this. I hope and
pray that the intelligent brahmana gentlemen following this discussion will
be able to enlighten a less intelligent person such as I, and provide me
with answers to the doubts in my mind.
In this quote above His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada says souls come here
and get into Maya for the purpose of feeling enjoyment. Presumably, if and
when I return to Goloka I will find that the happiness in Goloka I feel is
the same as it was before I left. So my concern is this: is there any
statement in the scriptures saying that devotees who have come back home
after being in Maya are any happier or wiser because of their experience of
Maya?
[PADA: Apparently, we do "learn" from the bad experience of being in the
material world:
Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes
perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka,
there’s no possibility of falling back.
Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after
putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really
intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become
intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order
of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something.
Now, if somebody comes, 'Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and
marry again and become a family man,' I'll never become, because I have got
my bad experience. I'll never become." Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta,
Adi-lila 7.108 (San Francisco, February 18, 1967)
** Presumably, after going back to Godhead we will be of the same
intelligence we had before. Then when another day comes where I feel a
taste for a higher type of enjoyment than what I am getting in Goloka I may
decide to come back to the material world again. Again and again I will
come back here. Is it not so? If the personal quest for enjoyment is the
driving force then surely my feeling of happiness in Goloka will fade once
again. Is it not so? The second question I have is a question I raised
before which nobody has answered: why should anybody make an effort to go
back to Godhead if eternal associates of Krishna feel this world is a more
attractive place to be than Vaikuntha? If the devotees in Goloka feel a
desire to come to the material world so they can experience greater
enjoyment, why should I want to go to Goloka? Perhaps as a matter of duty
and religious zeal we should serve Krishna. But in Goloka the souls serving
Krishna as cowherd boys and girls do not feel a sense of duty towards
Krishna but instead they live a life of fun in a world centered around
Krishna. Souls such as those, it would seem, may sometimes desire to enjoy
separately from Krishna. This is very perplexing.
[PADA: Yes, it is perpelexing. The answer is that as a general principle,
the souls in Vaikuntha / Goloka do not fall down to the material world.
Hence we find the Vedas saying that the souls in the spiritual world live
there eternally. So the general principle is that there is not a constant
flow of people coming and going. Indeed, Krishna also says that those who
return BACK to Vaikuntha from planet earth are very rare. So those who fall
are very rare, and those who return are very rare, this is not some
actively revolving door principle. This is why Srila Prabhupada says, if he
can simply take one soul back to Godhead that is his great success, it is
not like many people are coming and going.
So we have to see this as a general principle, the souls that are in
Vaikuntha / Goloka generally stay there eternally, and the souls that are
here, stuck in matter, generally stay here. The Vedas use terms such as
"nitya siddha" (eternally perfect) and nitya baddha (eternally bound). So
once in a great while someone falls from Goloka to here, and once in a
great while someone returns from here to Goloka. And those who might go
back to Goloka and then return here are rarer still since, there is yet
another general principle: "once burned by fire one does not put his hand
back into the fire." Therefore for the most part, those who return to
Goloka stay there and they do not come back to the material world. We
cannot focus on the rare exceptions as the rule.
At the same time, even if we return "there is chance" to fall again because
otherwise we would not have complete freedom? Again the emphasis is that we
are "always" in Goloka as long as we desire to be there, it is never a
forced post. Thus generally, the souls that come here and then "return
home" stay there perpetually having been "burned by the fire." For the most
part the souls that leave Goloka and come here, and then return to Goloka,
they do not come back here. There may be a very rare exceptional case and
is not to be considered as the main example. Then again Srila Prabhupada
did not even want us to bother our weary heads with these issues because
for the most part it is only relevant that we have to get out of here, that
is the main priority right now.
So when Srila Prabhupada says, "No one falls from Vaikuntha," he is stating
the main fact -- that the souls in the spiritual world (for the most part)
stay there. It is not like they are coming and going like tourists going to
Las Vegas. Generally it is an eternally fixed post, and to contemplate
other alternatives is not very useful, and is in any case the rare
exception. Of course, for the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura Govinda/
BR and BV Puri sector MOST of their alleged "pure devotees" are "falling
down" by the zillions, every two seconds one of their pure residents of
Vaikuntha splats on the pavement like incessant rain from a demoniac cloud.
Their theory is that (a) the neophyte devotee becomes pure and is a
resident of Vaikuntha, but (b) only for a few years, then he returns here.
Their whole idea is that people are coming and going to Vaikuntha like the
bus station at the Las Vegas Sands Hotel. There is no "eternity" at all for
these folks, ETERNAL purity is all in flux over the span of a few years.]
** My third question, an unanswered question I asked before in a previous
article, is this. Buddha said the gods in heaven do not live there forever
since all concrete realms are impermanent. If it is true that "Formerly we
were with Krsna in His lila" then it must also be true that the world of
Krishna is an impermanent residence for souls, since people in Vaikuntha
can (and do) fall into a state of illusion from time to time. This is the
logical conclusion I arrive at. Can someone please explain to me how my
thinking is wrong?
[PADA: Just because the eternal abode has been abandoned by some of us, and
not all at once but gradually over time -- over hundreds of trillions of
years -- this does not make a case that the spiritual world is in a state
of massive flux like the material world? We were in Krishna's lila or
sport, Jaya and Vijaya were in the spiritual world and they fell, and Satan
was an angel, and Adam and Eve were in the garden, these are examples to
illustate that the souls had a desire to be "independent masters." This
does not indicate that the spiritual world is itself in great flux because
some few souls leave and some come back over massive periods of time. And
since the largest majority of the souls stay in the spiritual world, that
means it is only a minority that are in bondage.
At the same time, lest we forget, Srila Prabhupada sort of says this is all
far too much for our teeny brains to comprehend, yes it is inconceivable
that we loved God and then wanted to be independent of God, but it can and
does happen because of "misuse of minute independence." Yet whatever
movement of a few souls is occuring at any given time, this has no real
impact on the status of the residents of Vaikuntha. Just as when a person
is either going to jail or is being released from jail in San Francisco,
almost nobody knows or cares, it has no impact on the city itself, and it
has about zero impact on the entire universe. For that matter, the
residents of the Nob Hill Estates have no idea what is the problem in the
Mission District of San Francisco, they are in separate worlds already even
when they are right next to one another. In short, a few souls at a time
leaving and coming back to planets with hundreds of trillions of entities
is not vey significant.]
** I have a fourth question, and a fifth. But before asking my fourth
question I would like to present two verses from the Gita.
In the Bhagavad gita (8.21) Krishna says:
avyakto 'ksara ity uktas tam ahuh paramam gatim
yam prapya na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama
"That supreme abode is called unmanifested and infallible, and it is the
supreme destination. When one goes there, he never comes back. That is My
supreme abode.
And in verse 6.15 Krishna says:
na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah
yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama
"That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by
electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world."
Some devotees interpret these verses to mean that a liberated person who
has gone back to Godhead from the material world will never fall again
whereas souls who have never fallen may still fall at some time in the
future if they decide to seek a higher type of satisfaction which they want
to experience in the material world. Yet if some cowherd boy in Goloka
makes a conscious choice to fall into Maya so he can experience enjoyment
separate from Krishna then why doesn't Krishna take care of his silly
friend and save him from all the trouble that he will go through? Why
doesn't Krishna protect the boy from the reactions that will come about
because of his desire to enter Maya and get born in physical bodies that
get old and rotten? Krishna says in the gita (9.31): "Declare it boldly
that My devotee will never perish." Why does Krishna say that if he doesn't
save his cowherd friends from becoming grubs? This is my fourth question.
[PADA: Once again, the main emphasis is that "no one falls" from the
spiritual world. And Srila Prabhupada says that Krishna does try to tell us
not to leave. Yet the main point that should be emphasized is, "Once
returning home, no one will come back here," that is the point that was
emphasized constantly by Srila Prabhupada. That means any other case is the
extremely rare case, so it is not emphasized. Then again, Krishna comes
here personally or sends his agents to "tell His servants to return home,"
and what happens then? Krishna is attacked by so many demons, and / or His
pure devotees are crucified or poisoned. If Krishna cannot convince them,
what should He do? Force people to march and chant Zeig Heil? No, He wants
you -- to want -- to serve Him. He could force you, but that is not His
perogative.
In short there are not a lot of people HERE who want to -- listen -- to
Krishna's message, they wanted to leave Krishna and they ended up in this
world. Why doesn't Krishna ask us to return after we get here? He does.
There are just not a lot of listeners. And then again we have those who
poison their guru, sit in his seat, and exploit Krishna's message. So
Krishna sends His pure devotees, and then the pure devotes are attacked, so
the actual listeners are few in number. Of course in other ages like Satya
Yuga, most of the people return home, that is another thing. Yet to be born
in Satya Yuga one has to be purified to a great extent already. So there is
the process of going where you deserve, and we deserved to be in Kali Yuga
where not many will be liberated. And in this age many will sit around
having tea and crumpets with the poisoners of the pure devotee.]
** There are billions of living souls in this world, all of which have
fallen into illusion from Vaikuntha (we believe). Why does Krishna allow so
many of his eternal friends from Goloka who he used to play with in the
pasture grounds fall into a state of seemingly perpetual illusion.
(Considering this issue carefully, I am starting to feel I should recant on
my earlier decision to accept that the souls in this world fall down from
Vaikuntha. It is much easier to accommodate the idea that souls who have
fallen from Brahman are filling up this world and that none of the
miserable maggots in the rubbish pile at the local junkyard were formerly
cowherd boys in Goloka).
[PADA: OK, you have failed to offer an explanation so far for how we
"desired to leave Krishna"? Before you can dismantle our idea, at least
present your idea? At least the Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura
Govinda/ et al. have some counter idea, their idea is that the "residents
of Krishna loka" are extreme criminal deviants. Their idea of Vaikuntha
residents is about as pure as a dead beached sea lion, which stinks up the
beach as we experienced. Their idea stinks, but at least they have a
counter idea? You have to at least attempt to present a better explanation,
if there is one?]
** Previously I wrote: If each and every fly and germ in the material world
was originally a servant of Krishna in Vaikuntha, if the residents of
Goloka such as Gopis and Gopas can become maggots and spend millions of
lifetimes in samsara, then what about Krishna's statement "Declare it
boldly that My devotee will never perish." (Bhagavad gita 9.31)?
[PADA: OK, but when you desire to leave Krishna, you are no longer His
devotee? Thus you have to REVIVE your service to Krishna.]
** Mahesh Raja presented an article in which he said that souls in this
world start of as Brahma and fall down from there. But then, as he
mentioned in quotes he gave in regard the fallen jiva, "before that even,
he was with Krishna". That is, before he was a Brahma he was a cowherd (or
a resident of Vaikuntha), and then Krishna let this liberated individual
who was doing service fall into illusion and become a fool, become a
Brahma, and become a maggot. Sorry if my language seems harsh but I want to
emphasize this issue that concerns me deeply. If one of the brahmana
gentlemen presently advising me how to understand Krishna Consciousness
properly would please enlighten me about this matter I would be extremely
grateful.
[PADA: Well it is simple, you fall down from serving Krishna because you
wanted to serve yourself. Then you become entangled in this world and go
downwards. Just look at the bogus GBC gurus, they were serving Krishna,
then they decided to serve themselves.]
** The next question I have, the fifth question is that I would like to
know why a distinction is made in the scriptures between jiva souls who
arise from the marginal potency and the eternal residents of Vaikuntha who
are said to be expansions of the antaranga shakti? If all of us jivas were
originally part of the Goloka-lila and consequently part of the antaranga
shakti then why is it that in the scriptures such as Brahma Samhita it is
stated that the jiva souls arise from Brahman (not the antaranga shakti)?
[PADA: Well this is another interesting point. Some of the souls such as
the gopis are considered as the highest devotees, perhaps that means they
would never fall down. Yet we also find that sometimes conditioned jivas
join up with the liberated gopis in Krishna's lila on this earth, to become
trained up as gopis and go back to that service. So it seems that perhaps
some former gopis are regaining their original post. It would also seem
that some of most advanced devotees, Radha's direct servants for example,
they are more or less part of the internal energy, thus they are not
ordinary jivas who can fail. Yet the main point remains, that there are
conditioned jivas being trained as gopis, so it is possible to go to that
level even after being conditioned. Whether they were originally gopis who
are reviving their post is an interesting question, but it seems possible.
The conclusion is that it seems to be a possibility for any regular jeeva
to fail, just like Satan was formerly supposed to be God's right hand
servant. After leaving, we may end up falling here and then going to
brahman, but that is not our actual source.]
** (Various persons have made comments about how the translations of the
writings of previous Acaryas are unreliable translations. But this is a
moot point in regard to the English translation we have of Brahma Samhita
because that book is coming to us in the direct English words penned by
Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.)
Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura wrote in Sri Brahma Samhita. Text 21:
sa nityo nitya-sambandhah prakrtis ca paraiva sa
TRANSLATION: The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a
beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He
is transcendental spiritual potency.
PURPORT: Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the
transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jivas
are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are,
therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jivas, being particles of
Godhead's effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the
Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge,
knower, egoism, enjoyed, meditator and doer. Krishna is the all-pervading,
all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His,
being His atomic particles.
That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the
eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also
sufficient eligibility in respect at the mellow quality of the Divinity.
Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Geeta
it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the
qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as
egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency,
though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya.
This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency being
located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane
potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing
to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the
Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly
afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered
condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a
time that has no beginning.
[PADA: Tatastha simply means the bank of a river, which can move one way or
the other, so the souls can go from Vaikuntha to here, and from here back
to Vaikuntha. The tatastha idea is that we are able to move, that is the
main point here. Marginal and moveable -- means it can remain spiritual, or
slip into matter, it is not necessarily fixed. Yet some Sridhara Maharaja
and GGM folks tried to tell us that we originate in the marginal area. No,
we originate in the spiritual area and because we are marginal we may move
into the material. Brahmajyoti is marginal because it is separating
spiritual and material, and thus we are likened to that state because we
are "in between." So tatastha describes how the river bank can move, it
does not say that is the source of the river?]
** Here, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura clearly states in his own words
written in English that the jiva shakti is tatastha shakti. Moreover, we do
know that tatastha shakti is different from the antaranga shakti from which
the parshads (eternal associates) are expanded. So in summary, my fifth
question is that I would like to know why the previous Acaryas make a
distinction between tatastha shakti and antaranga shakti if the jiva shakti
is not truly arising from the "margin" between Prakriti and the antaranga
shakti. Shouldn't it become a point of philosophy we preach, that this jiva
shakti is made up of persons who used to be in the antaranga shakti but who
then became ignorant fools.
[PADA: Well ok, if the jiva goes back by his tatastha ability, then he
becomes an associate / parisad. Yet you are confusing different points. The
devotees in Vaikuntha are able to leave, that is the meaning of tatastha,
it does not indicate they started in brahman, it means they have the
ability to move here or there. "To revive your dormant Krishna
consciousness" means that the internal spiritual enegy is still within us,
even in the conditioned jivas, it is just dormant. This is also why the
souls cannot be burned, dried, or killed etc., the internal spiritual
potency is still there, it is merely covered. Srila Prabhupada says when
you wipe the dust from the mirror, then you see yourself. So the soul has
to clean off the material dust and then he will see his spiritual body,
which is already there, it is just covered by the material dust.]
** I started this article off by saying that I now accept the notion that
all the jivas in this world have fallen down from Vaikuntha. But having
reconsidered all these points I do wonder if there are serious fundamental
problems that have arisen simultaneously with the notion that eternal
servitors of the Lord can fall into Maya. Might it be possible, I wonder,
that at some time in the future Srila Prabhupada himself will decide to
seek happiness in the material world? I appreciate that many devotees will
think this statement of mine is scandalous. But truly I am just trying to
understand this idea that anyone in Vaikuntha can fall down into illusion.
[PADA: Well the first point is that most of your ideas are re-packaged
ideologies from the Gaudiya Matha. They opened a can of worms here on this
issue, but as we already pointed out, there are so many flaws in their
process it is hardly worth considering. Srila Prabhupada has already said:
Once we fall and get to know about the bad experience of the material
world, we are then experienced in putting our hands in the fire, so we are
not inclined to come back HERE to the fire once we go back home. That is
even more the case for people who are acharyas, they come here and they are
harassed if not killed for their preaching effort, they really know the
material world is not heavenly.
Thus the acharyas have no inclination to reside in this world whatsoever.
As Srila Prabhupada says, the only reason the acharyas come here is to
preach. It seems to us that you are thinking the positions of the jeevas in
Vaikuntha, or even the acharyas, are changing all the time, but they are
not. Change is rare there, even here on earth we see it is rare for someone
to serve the pure devotee. Srila Prabhupada also says that by dint of the
extreme service performed by the acharyas, they are always protected by the
Lord. So there are special cases where certain devotee will get special
protection and treatment by dint of extreme sacrifices, and the acharyas
are certainly eligible for that. In sum, generally the residents of Krishna
loka are staying there in the first place. Those who come here and become
liberated go back and stay there without even falling again, that is the
general rule.]
** I wonder about all this. If anyone can fall from Goloka into Maya then
maybe one day Chandravali and other Gopis will decide to leave aside that
life they are living on the slopes of Govardhana. Maybe they will decide to
seek the greater joys of life that can be found in the material world. Oh,
and if Chandravali decides to leave Goloka, will Krishna let her become a
grub or a tree for millions of lifetimes? I just don't know the answer to
that.
[PADA: Well yes, you were told not to dither on this topic by the acharya
himself. The status of great devotees like Chandravali are also not
something we should speculate about. We merely presented a few points to
help you see that it is not that difficult if we follow the process given
by Srila Prabhupada. thanks pd]